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the underlying question seems to be okay

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if we get to the point where we accept

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that we're in a post materialistic world

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and that there's this extended

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consciousness realm which you accept as

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kind of a given in your work right then

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don't we have to ask the next question

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is is there a higher hierarchal nature

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to consciousness because there sure as

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hell seems to be I mean that's what

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that's what all the near-death

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experience research says research says

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that's what the the past lives research

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says that's what the medium research

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says it says there's a hierarchical

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structure to consciousness if there is

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then I think this question that I just

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teed up you know is religion moral is

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God moral and your reluctance to connect

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the moral and the mystical I don't know

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I want to throw that on the table and

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and in the spirit of having a good a

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good debate with you Jeff because as you

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know as we said I so respect what you're

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bringing to this conversation but I

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gotta push you a little bit because

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these are the things that I care about

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and because we need to model I think

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that there needs to be a dialogue that

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isn't always two people patting each

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other on the back and agreeing about

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everything that's fine like it's a great

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question Alex we could we could address

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it please go ahead well so you're

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referring to one of the there's 20 what

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I call no moans and these are like

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little short phrases that summarize

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basically the different ideas in the

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book and one of the early ones Sara

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connection between the mystical and the

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moral and that's a very complex

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statement but what I mean by that is

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sometimes people have profound

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life-changing religious experiences in

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situations which are dangerous or deadly

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or traumatic and that sometimes deeply

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charismatic spirits

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teachers who can change people instantly

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with a touch or a look can also engage

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in abusive sexually abusive physically

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abusive behaviors and what I've seen

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over the years is people who want to say

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that it's all either pure light and and

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happiness and love or it's all nonsense

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it's not real and what I'm trying to

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plead for is actually it's messier than

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that and sometimes we can have profound

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religious experiences in a moral or even

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immoral situations and it's just an

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observation I'm making it's it's not

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it's not a moral claim that Jeff cry

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poles making I consider myself to be

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very concerned about moral issues I

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meant I'm a social persona I'm a I'm a

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citizen I'm a family member like like

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the rest of us

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so I care about people but I don't then

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draw from that that every single

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religious experience has to somehow

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honor those moral codes because they

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clearly don't and if you look at

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religious experience historically what

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you realize very fairly quickly is that

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what human beings have experienced as

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holy is not the same as the good or the

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the moral that sometimes when someone

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has an encounter with the holy it's

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terrifying and it's even potentially

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deadly you don't get to look on the face

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of God you don't get to touch the Ark of

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the Covenant if you get too close to

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this God you die so clearly the holy

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there is not what we think of as the

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good it's something way beyond that it's

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something way beyond any moral category

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and it can manifest in terrifying or

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very redemptive in healing ways so let

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me let me bring this back to a process

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in a single example so I guess you know

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I'm really interested in the abduction

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literature and this

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of modern people having these abduction

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experiences well some of those abduction

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experiences are very positive and

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redemptive in healing and some of them

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are terrifying and traumatizing and

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destructive and I would say they are

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both both of those kinds of abduction

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experiences our encounters with the holy

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one in a positive frame and one in a

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negative frame and I wouldn't want as

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what what I think what I'm trying to

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argue against is saying oh one is

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demonic and one is real no the demon and

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the angel are two sides of the same

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sacred coin here and and we have to

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struggle with that as human beings

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because this is our religious experience

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over the centuries and millennia we can

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find hundreds and thousands of cases of

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religious accounts that are incredibly

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positive and we can find the same number

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that are incredibly negative so why lop

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off one for the sake of the other why

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not just say they're both there because

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they don't know because we don't know if

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some of those really horrific abduction

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experiences are at the hand of some

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MyLab military industrial complex idiot

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who's doing some other mindless MKULTRA

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type job and then there's a whole other

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set of them that truly are spiritually

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transformative because that was the

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intent of the people behind them we

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don't know so just but just in the same

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way that we can't apply you know the

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filter that you just kind of criticized

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we can't apply your filter either

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because we don't know what the nature of

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those well but we know that any

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religious experience before 1920 or just

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pick your date had nothing to do with an

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MKULTRA lab or any intelligence service

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I mean you can see these patterns as far

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as you want to go back in time I mean

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these these are deep deep historical

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pattern I don't buy your critique there

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I mean I I think these are ancient and

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they say something about our own our own